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Quote: Have you ever traveled cross-country on a bus? Ridden on a passenger train for any real distance? Just curious, because I have.
Yes, I've done multiple overnight trips and several on high speed trains in europe it was an enjoyable experience, on bus not so much. Was it a modern high speed train like the acela or those in europe and japan with amenities or a dated amtrak train? Was it a positive or negative experience.
Quote: I see the proposed HSP route and I'm counting the stops. How much luggage can you take? Rape-like baggage fees? How about traveling with sports gear i.e. surfboards?
There's 16 total stops. Only 4 for express trains.
Trains don't have the same weight issues as a plane that needs to take flight. Being a bumfuck texan I'm sure you're familiar with freight trains and how many cars they're capable of towing. Here's the Amtrak luggage policy...
You can carry on 2 bags and check 3 bags up to 50lbs each at no charge and up to three additional bags for $10 each.
No mention of surfboards...Special Items: Ski equipment, snowboards, golf bags and bicycles may generally only be handled as checked baggage on Amtrak trains, and not as carry-ons. Items are permitted onboard when they can be safely stowed in the exterior lockers of Superliner equipment, or onboard equipment that is specifically designed to safely and securely accommodate the storage of the items.
Quote: Rail, except in highly populated areas, went by the wayside when cars became economical and plentiful. That was nearly 100 years ago and there was a good reason for that
If gas is $7 or 8 a gallon by the time this thing is completed how economical will cars be?
At $8/gallon a whole lot more people will be driving hybrids and there will be a lot more incentive in the market to develop hydrogen and other alternatives. Hence the glee among the greenies every time oil prices spike.
At $8/gallon and a 40 mpg (freeway) Honda Civic a 400 mile trip will cost $80 each way. Assuming the HSR direct *and indirect* operating costs don't also increase it will still be a little cheaper to make the drive, particularly when considering the convenience factor and opportunity costs involved with the connections at both ends.
Of course, when oil prices go up the cost of *everything* also increase. That includes those other indirect operating costs. There's a multiplier effect to the cost of oil that spreads far beyond an oversimplified and superficial comparo between the current ticket price of a train ride and a gallon of gas.
Frankly, I'm not sure how high the cost of oil would have to go before a train ride gets cheap enough to prompt a car owner to leave their car home for a 400 mile trip.
How many Ratfinks do you really think you'll see driving honda civics?
I think he'd rather ride the train than give up his F250 crew cab.
If we're talking about $8/gallon gas I think it's pretty safe to assume that most people will go for alternative energy cars for their daily drivers. Don't you think so?
The real question remains: how many Ratfinks have any desire to go to Sacramento? When was the last time you went to Sacramento? I've been twice, and only because my ex had family there. Heck, Bakersfield is much closer and I've never driven there as a destination. I consider access or the lack thereof to be irrelevant to my decision of whether or not to go. I go where I have reason to go. For the rest of the possible destinations out there I basically don't care.
I got to SF about 4 or 5x a year. And I rarely go to Sacto proper but I do go to Davis several times a year to visit an old friend from college thats raising a family up there. The Sacto stop would be pretty convenient to me.
-------------------- "[Rush] doesn't influence me either - merely reinforces what I already know" - 23rdstMB
Post Extras:
GDaddy
Phil Edwards status
Reged: 01/16/06
Posts: 7374
Loc: Carlsbad
Fair enough - it could work for you. If there were 20,000 other people in a similar situation everyday it might be worth building. I just think that's a big if.
Post Extras:
ifallalot
Duke status
Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 18394
Loc: Carlsbad, CA
Quote: Never gonna happen. It'll traverse way too much private property. Imagine the cost of the buyouts for the right of way? environmental studies? The Sierra Club should be schitting themselves. Rail to where? who's gonna pick you up and lend you their car? Rent one? shoulda driven there in my own car to begin with... While ya'll are at it, why not propose another dam for more hydro-electricity. That'll go over good too.
Never gonna happen.
Dude,
This is California.
We don't build dams here, we tear down the ones we already have. Duh...
Why are you about this? Do you think we should continue to destroy environments with dams?
Do you realize where SoCal gets it's electricity? It's the only reason you're able to live there.
Quote: SCE’s Big Creek Hydroelectric System generates approximately 1,000 megawatts of power which is 90% of SCE’s hydroelectric power and 20% percent of SCE owned power generation capacity. The Big Creek System, located in the central Sierra Nevada Mountains, is comprised of 6 major reservoirs, 27 dams , 9 powerhouses, and miles of interconnecting infrastructure earning it the motto “The Hardest Working Water in the World.”
As to the water situation, its high time to up grey water output
Cover all of our ridgelines and hillsides with those things and it's OK???
You seriously need to get a mental evaluation.
All of coastal SoCal and the desert can be covered with those things as well as all of the hills in the Bay Area Anything beautiful (ie Central Coast, North Coast, Sierras) gets left alone.
-------------------- the graphics portray the hawks prey battling death
Quote: Fair enough - it could work for you. If there were 20,000 other people in a similar situation everyday it might be worth building. I just think that's a big if.
the key word is foresight. It's not so much about where people are and want to go today. It's where they are and want to go a decade from now and the cost and convenience it's going to take them there. I can guarantee you nobody is going to want to ride a train that doesn't exist. If things stay on the same course and gas hits $8/gal in the next decade which is likely and we don't start building alternatives now it's gonna be much costlier to fast track something similar rather than have it ready. As I said over and over and over again in this thread I don't expect people to be lining up to sell out the seats on every train leaving the station on opening day. I expect this thing to take some time to catch on but if done right it could be a really good thing. And I'm willing to bet some of those central valley communities along the way will see a boost to their local economies and property value as commuters who can't afford to own in the city start buying homes further down the line. For example an Irvine to Los Angeles commute woould be reduced to 28min. Gilroy to SF would be 44min. Someone could commute from Fresno to SF which is 188 miles away in an hour and 20 min. It's a bit long for my liking. But people often commute longer in their cars these days. Look at the cost of property value of SF vs Fresno. Someone starting a young family on a low to middle income could never afford to buy in SF. This could give them the option. And with it places like Fresno may improve. Being interconnected is a good thing.
-------------------- "[Rush] doesn't influence me either - merely reinforces what I already know" - 23rdstMB
Quote: All of coastal SoCal and the desert can be covered with those things as well as all of the hills in the Bay Area Anything beautiful (ie Central Coast, North Coast, Sierras) gets left alone.
I thought Smackdaddy made up the rules around here. Is there a new sheriff in town here or what?
-------------------- "That's their respect for me... I got leid," Rabbit Kekai
Post Extras:
ifallalot
Duke status
Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 18394
Loc: Carlsbad, CA
Quote: Pro train = liberal Anti train = conservative
Can I get a ruling on pro/anti broccoli? My wife loves the stuff. The kids hate it. I'll eat it, but I have to slather it in Ranch dressing first.
Plain broccoli = liberal Ranch on vegetables = conservative
Deep fried with ranch = Limbaugh.
I used to think cauliflower was the most boring vegetable on earth till I had buffalo cauliflower at Mohawk Bend that even a fat midwesterner would love.
-------------------- "[Rush] doesn't influence me either - merely reinforces what I already know" - 23rdstMB
Post Extras:
GWS
Duke status
Reged: 01/11/02
Posts: 32256
Loc: Dustopia
BTW, I believe that ten pages are required for a thread to reach trainwreck status. I didn't think we were gonna make it until youknowwho brought up the gay lob. Choo Choo.
-------------------- "That's their respect for me... I got leid," Rabbit Kekai
Post Extras:
GWS
Duke status
Reged: 01/11/02
Posts: 32256
Loc: Dustopia
Quote: BTW, I believe that ten pages are required for a thread to reach trainwreck status. I didn't think we were gonna make it until youknowwho brought up the gay lob. Choo Choo.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
-------------------- Only a fool trips over what’s behind them
Quote: That depends. If you enjoyed the way your sphincter was burning the next morning...
gay.
That was lunch today so it would be tomorrow morning. If I were to go into town and pound icy cold vodka martinis for a couple of hours maybe that would take the fire out and I wouldn't be a joto? Worth a try?
-------------------- "That's their respect for me... I got leid," Rabbit Kekai
Post Extras:
GWS
Duke status
Reged: 01/11/02
Posts: 32256
Loc: Dustopia
Quote: Fair enough - it could work for you. If there were 20,000 other people in a similar situation everyday it might be worth building. I just think that's a big if.
the key word is foresight. It's not so much about where people are and want to go today. It's where they are and want to go a decade from now and the cost and convenience it's going to take them there. I can guarantee you nobody is going to want to ride a train that doesn't exist. If things stay on the same course and gas hits $8/gal in the next decade which is likely and we don't start building alternatives now it's gonna be much costlier to fast track something similar rather than have it ready. As I said over and over and over again in this thread I don't expect people to be lining up to sell out the seats on every train leaving the station on opening day. I expect this thing to take some time to catch on but if done right it could be a really good thing. And I'm willing to bet some of those central valley communities along the way will see a boost to their local economies and property value as commuters who can't afford to own in the city start buying homes further down the line. For example an Irvine to Los Angeles commute woould be reduced to 28min. Gilroy to SF would be 44min. Someone could commute from Fresno to SF which is 188 miles away in an hour and 20 min. It's a bit long for my liking. But people often commute longer in their cars these days. Look at the cost of property value of SF vs Fresno. Someone starting a young family on a low to middle income could never afford to buy in SF. This could give them the option. And with it places like Fresno may improve. Being interconnected is a good thing.
Last things first - Stockton is 44 miles south of Sacramento and they already have a ton of ghost town subdivisions, with lots more land available nearby. Nobody needs to commute from Fresno to Sacramento based on cheap housing. And 44 miles is a commuter run (i.e., local).
Speaking of which, Irvine to LA would also be a commuter run and not an HSR run. Same with Gilroy (also a depressed farming town) to SF or Sac to SF. Neither route being part of this HSR proposal.
If you really think we're going to get Irvine-style densities all through the central valley in the next 50 years then I could see how it *might* be cheaper to build a new rail line now rather than later. I'm skeptical.
Don't forget, when you're comparing dollars spent on improvements you have to consider the effect of inflation on those dollars as well as the carrying costs, maintenance costs and the reduced lifespan of the physical elements by the time you get around to needing them. That's four factors to take under consideration, not just the one. Building an grossly overimproved capacity too far in advance adds to the carrying costs during the interim.
If they really think they're going to build it then the smarter thing to do would be to acquire the right of way for the entire route now, before they lay any track. It doesn't look like that's the plan, though. It looks like they're going to go with the plan that consists of start now and use political pressure to complete it when the going gets tougher.
Post Extras:
ratfink
Phil Edwards status
Reged: 07/15/08
Posts: 6475
Loc: Texas Gulf de Mexico
How many Ratfinks do you really think you'll see driving honda civics?
I think he'd rather ride the train than give up his F250 crew cab.
I drive a Ridgeline. But thanks for asking. I love my Honda and will probably get an Accord a little bit down the line once we settle into a more urban lifestyle.
How many Ratfinks do you really think you'll see driving honda civics?
I think he'd rather ride the train than give up his F250 crew cab.
I drive a Ridgeline. But thanks for asking. I love my Honda and will probably get an Accord a little bit down the line once we settle into a more urban lifestyle.
How patriotic of you.
-------------------- "[Rush] doesn't influence me either - merely reinforces what I already know" - 23rdstMB
Post Extras:
Surfdog
Phil Edwards status
Reged: 04/22/01
Posts: 5794
Loc: Oceanside,CA
Quote: Fair enough - it could work for you. If there were 20,000 other people in a similar situation everyday it might be worth building. I just think that's a big if.
the key word is foresight. It's not so much about where people are and want to go today. It's where they are and want to go a decade from now and the cost and convenience it's going to take them there. I can guarantee you nobody is going to want to ride a train that doesn't exist. If things stay on the same course and gas hits $8/gal in the next decade which is likely and we don't start building alternatives now it's gonna be much costlier to fast track something similar rather than have it ready. As I said over and over and over again in this thread I don't expect people to be lining up to sell out the seats on every train leaving the station on opening day. I expect this thing to take some time to catch on but if done right it could be a really good thing. And I'm willing to bet some of those central valley communities along the way will see a boost to their local economies and property value as commuters who can't afford to own in the city start buying homes further down the line. For example an Irvine to Los Angeles commute woould be reduced to 28min. Gilroy to SF would be 44min. Someone could commute from Fresno to SF which is 188 miles away in an hour and 20 min. It's a bit long for my liking. But people often commute longer in their cars these days. Look at the cost of property value of SF vs Fresno. Someone starting a young family on a low to middle income could never afford to buy in SF. This could give them the option. And with it places like Fresno may improve. Being interconnected is a good thing.
What in 10 years from now, is going to be so much drastically different in communting than 10 or even 20 years ago? Sure a lot of big-time growth happened in the outer-fringe "affordable" 'burbs. Temecula and Moreno Valley are prime examples of "instant" doubling growth. But looks where it's gotten them. People left those town in droves, when the growth party was over. But, that's a whole other story. The states growth rate has slowed to a crawl, and with businesses (and long time residents) leaving and failing to re-locate here, I don't see that changing in the forsee-able future.
What the pro-HSBT types keep failing to address, is where is the $100+ billion going to come from to finish this Euro-pipedream? We can't even pay for our teachers, our bloated public union pension funds, our state parks, and all other things state government as it is. And we want to spend it all and more on a bullet train, that a tiny percentage of people will maybe use a few times a year?
In the last few weeks, we have substantial sized cities claiming bankrupty (Stockton, San Bernardino) along with other smaller towns like Mammoth Lakes. How in the hell is the state going to responsibly pay for this train? Please someone answer me this.
The credit cards are maxxed out, and we can't get another one. This is the direction the state of Cal is headed with dems claiming ALL the credit. Yet it never changes.
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